In TOC (which I run almost every day), a DK dps (in blues and greens and maybe 3 purples) rolled on a tanking ring against the Paladin tank, who stopped just short of throwing a fit. When the DK wouldn't hand over the ring and I tried to whisper the Paladin into a better frame of mind, the Paladin left the group.
In the randoms I've run, I've supported the policy that if you can and will use something, you can roll on it. Tanking classes can roll against the group's tank if they're building a tanking set. My underlying philosophy is that people need to gear up to perform their rolls and everyone has the right to gear up.
Now, is it frustrating to lose a roll on something you've been farming forever?
OhmyGod, yes.
Can you whisper others to make an agreement on a specific item or to request that they let you have the item after they win it?
Sure.
Can you demand that others pass on an item for you or give it to you or get in a huff if they won't?
No.
You can ask nicely, but you can't insist. You can give people the opportunity to be generous, you can lay your plight at their feet and request that they take pity on you, but you have no right to demand what they've won just because you've failed at it longer or you're the "right" spec for it.
It comes down to this: basic manners dictate that even though you may be gnashing your teeth with frustration over a lost roll, you don't get to take that frustration out on your group. Lose gracefully or don't do randoms.
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Similar experience in FoS with my feral druid. Finally, after weeks of farming for it, the Needle Encrusted Scorpion dropped. The ret pally, holy pally and I all rolled on it, I won and the ret pally swore me out because he'd been trying for so long to get it. Fortunately, it was the last boss in the run, so it was just a matter of, "I know what you mean, man. Sorry. Bye."
ReplyDeleteI feel the exact same way, well said!
ReplyDeleteGranted, if the player who won the roll has also been a complete asshat about the item the entire run, and the proceeds to win it, I think the situation might be a little different.
ReplyDeleteI may have mentioned a Holy Priest deliberately winding me up during heroic HoR because I said I was there for the Shriveled Heart, even though he already had it.
You don't need gear to tank. I have a paladin, DK and warrior tank at 80 and all jumped into heroics as tanks.
ReplyDeleteYou can run the ICC normal modes which can easily be tanked with the saronite blue crafted gear and thry drop emblems and tank gear. You can chain-run them as they don't have a lockout. You can craft a lot of gear, blue and purple which is more then fit for tanking the old heroics.
The problem is that a DD or healer who roll on tanking gear will never be able to tank. They might be able to collect a tanking set, but the can't tank. Because it's not what they want to do. They will forever think they need just one more piece. Otherwise they would actually tank the heroics.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteWell, i dont agree with you on this on, i like to read you, and i do that for some time now. Mostly i like your ideas but this one is absurd.
Let me tell you part of the story, i`m a tank, thats it. NO DPS, NO Healer, (i have 2 tanking classes, a paladin and a warrior, both have dual talents, but both talents are protection), i`ve lost so many rolls on tanking gear just because some ret pala, fury warrior or blood DK whanted that for they "OS" they will probably use a few times.
I never rolled on a DPS/healer drop, and i never will, i dont have any DPS gear (oka, i do have some that i get`it from raids and i use them for testing (TPS / surv / etc )
The point is when you farm the same dungeon over and over again ( i did my share part farming HoR for Splintered Door of the Citadel ) and you see the best pre raiding shield drop just that someone else (a dps) to take the drop and leave party, well. Thats kinda frustrating.
I`ve seen that shield droping 4 times. 2 times i lost the roll, and every time cleared the full dungeon. After i lost the shield i did a macro something along the line, if you whant the shield tank the dungeon and i wont roll on that. 3rd time someone else in the party need`it and he tanked the dungeon, when the shield drop he got`it (i didnt rolled need because i didnt tank the dungeon).
my point is, if you whant a drop for your OS, ask, if no one whant that drop for MS (tank / dps ) you can roll need on it. But if you roll need and your not the right spec in that dungeon / fight. stu and dont complain. ( MS > OS )
IMHO the DK was rude and an ass, if you whant that drop, get your tanking gear and tank the fucking dungeon (sorry for the "F" word), but if your a DPS and roll on a tanking gear against the tank get the fuck out and welcom to ignore list.
@Trollii - You've never selected more than one role for a heroic dungeon? You've never had your T10-geared Holy Paladin running as Ret in his PvP gear because some freshly-80 Priest who only knows how to use Renew JUST queued for heals? And then you're not going to roll to upgrade your Ulduar healing mace against said Priest because he "earned the right" to heal by being less flexible than you? LOL
ReplyDelete@Birdy - Wasn't there a post some time back about prima-donna tanks? Good example here.
Jon, your example is just flawed as it never ever happens in a heroic. Yes, it happens with Lord Ahune or HoR NORMAL. But it never ever happens in heroics.
ReplyDeleteWhen you're queuing alone as tank and X the LFD will let you tank.
When you're queuing alone as heal and DD the LFD will let you heal.
Jon, never happen to me :D i select only one role.
ReplyDeleteI have a little warrior who only tanks. She "selects one role." Yet I don't mind when people roll on tanking gear against me. Is it annoying to lose gear I need? Sure. Am I going to be a brat about it? No.
ReplyDeleteSure, but the other person who doesn't tank doesn't need tanking outfit. They take something they don't need from someone who could use it. There is no point in protecting these selfish people.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the thought that people who will not use an item should not roll on it and should be kicked from the party.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do not agree that people who random as one spec will never use the items they roll on for another, nor that "main spec" should be deferred to in a pug. Should people wish to be gracious and give a "main spec" the item, that's awesome. If not, there's no rule against them competing for something they (and this is a heavy argument in my mind) waited a half hour to get to as opposed to the tank who on average waits a millisecond.
Randoming is just plain faster for non-dps classes. It is easier, time-wise, to gear up as a tank or healer than to switch from dps to one of those rolls.
The grey area lies here: you don't always know if they'll use it or not unless they say so. You may also run into morons who don't know how to gear their spec.
What can you do about the grey areas?
Not much. If they don't listen to practical (and calm) persuasions, then there's nothing you can do without turning into a huge jerk that the entire group hates.
And it's really not worth the spike in blood pressure.
Yeah, this is a tough one for me. I generally think it's polite to ask first when wanting to roll OS. If the MS say 'no, I need that" I don't roll.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I guess ICC 5-Heroics are "old content" now, and maybe the rules are different.
As always, the real rule is to communicate, and don't be obnoxious.
I rolled on something OS once and the MS flipped out. It wasn't something it would have occurred to me someone would be farming so I was surprised and tried to give it to him. He was so busy spamming invective and some pretty baroque flip-off macros that he never saw my attempts to apologize and give it to him. He rage quit and the group kind of wrote it off, but the experience stayed with me. Yes, he was a tool but I should have communicated. So now I do.
It's hard to gauge how much other people want something and what they will do with it. Maybe the best thing is just to always pre-state when you are farming for a particular drop.
And where's the rule against dropping group if a DD rolled on and won tank loot? There isn't one either.
ReplyDeleteBut that's not why I commented as it's all about etiquette and there isn't only one correct etiquette.
My point is that, if you're serious about tanking you can level to 80 and start tanking in instances. The cheap blue crafted gear is enough to tank all the heroics the LFD throws you in and there are the ICC normal mode instances which also reward badges and better gear then the normal heroics. You can easily tank them.
But, tanking is "hard". You have to babysit your group. You have to lead your group. The group expects you to do all the decisions (we take the left route).
Tanking doesn't require gear. Tanking requires a hard skull and thick skin. The real beatings you'll have to take come from your group, not from monsters.
You have a tank alt. You know that, I'm sure.
And that's why players who run along as a DD and roll on tank loot will never be tanks. They might collect a wonderful tank set but they will never feel comfortable to be the groups bitch.
"the real rule is to communicate, and don't be obnoxious"
ReplyDeleteI think that sums it up. :)
@Kring: Well put.
@Kring
ReplyDelete-- When you're queuing alone as tank and X the LFD will let you tank.
When you're queuing alone as heal and DD the LFD will let you heal. --
This is false. On many occasions, my Shammy has been queued as Healer/DPS and has ended up as DPS. With my Paladin, I have been queued as a Tank/DPS and somehow ended up as DPS.
It's not set in stone.